Fact-Checking the "PRT Boondoggle" Blog
A project of the PRT NewsCenter

Friday, December 28, 2007

A headline that would mean something...

...if I were ever a member of CPRT or supporter of Slappy Olson:

‘The CPRT's David Gow Calls Rep. Mark Olson a "Certifiable Wacko"’

In the interest of accuracy (I'm all about the accuracy) I should point out that the full context is "He seems to be... a certifiable wacko." Nor am I a member of CPRT -- Kenthorpe knows this. Nor can anything be found showing that I ever supported Slappy -- because I don't support Resmuglicans.

Readers are invited to speculate why Captain Whatever thinks this is worth blogging about, while it's OK for him to call PRT supporters wacky, loony, cultish, unhinged, nutcases, deluded, fanatics, etc.

Or imply a PRT official's company was responsible for train accident deaths.

And where did this tiresome thrown under the bus cliché first start? Because it's transit bashing.

Also today: When he types "whatever" and clicks Post, do you think he rolls his eyes, and does the neck thrust with talk-to-the-hand gesture?

Welcome to the Hotel Ken Avidor; check in but you can never leave

Monday, December 24, 2007

"Christmas is Bogus - Dump Santa," advises skeptic

A Minnesota anti-holiday activist and skeptic of childlike wonder today issued a warning about the annual 'Christmas' holiday. Ben Bloviador of Minneapolis says that the winter holiday and its iconographic spokesperson, 'Santa Claus,' is a stalking horse for the retail industry and the Republican Party.

Conservative connections

"Basically, Santa Claus is a stalking horse for the retail industry and the Republican Party," said Bloviador.

"All you have to do is look at the symbology. Santa is dressed mostly in red, the color of the right wing. A real progressive would be dressed in blue," Bloviador said.

Bloviador's most compelling evidence is that Santa's red suit with white trim are the same colors as Target Stores, the Minnesota-based retail chain. "I have video taken in a local Target, of Republican state representative Mark Olson doing his Christmas shopping -- including items for a 'care package' for imprisoned former city councilman Dean Zimmermann."

"I don't think you need any more evidence than that to prove what a silly, bogus holiday Christmas is," said Bloviador.


Bloviador said that Santa's transport, a sleigh, is unproven and infeasible technology. "We're supposed to believe an open sleigh can travel the entire world in one night?" he asked. The purpose, he said, was to create the illusion that Christmas is eco-friendly. "Look at all the green," said Bloviador, "Green holly, green wreathes, green trees. But a sleigh powered only by reindeer on hay is wacky; it would have to be a hybrid to power all those systems and achieve high speed."

"It removes the idea that sleighs are non-polluting," he said, adding that a real liberal would deliver presents with a light rail train.

A long quest

Bloviador said he first became suspicious of Christmas in 1962. "My family was having a Hannukah dinner, when this Santa Claus came down the chimney, uninvited, and disrupted the evening. He stomped through the house screaming 'Ho, ho, ho,' and ordering us to have a 'Merry Christmas.' He gave me coal," Bloviador recalled.

"That's when I began investigating Christmas, and now I am perhaps the leading skeptic of this bogus right-wing scam."

Peace On Earth and Good Will Even to Ken Avidor

Tuesday, December 18, 2007

Tick tock

Almost like clockwork, Ben Humidor the Minnesota anti-PRT propagandist has grasped a straw of apparent hope for his anti-innovation jihad. He's saying ATS Ltd.'s ULTra at Heathrow is delayed:

From the BAA 2005:
On successful completion of all the milestones a year long pilot scheme will be introduced at Heathrow airport in 2008.
From the BBC on Monday:
Heathrow Airport operator BAA said the guided vehicles should be up and running in 2009.
No mention in the article or at the ULtra [sic] site why the project has been delayed a year (of course). Source

Is Kenwood suggesting that no conventional transit project has ever fallen behind schedule? But is this even the case with ULTra? The key is: what does he think "introduce" means? Or "up and running"?

As usual, it's up to me to do his research for him. Two sources with the ULTra project say, first, there is no known schedule change and, second, that ULTra will begin its shakedown in 2008. Public service will be early/mid-2009.

How did I get this information? Unlike the Labridor, I ask people questions. Whereas what he does is guesswork from a distance.

In short -- it's a big project. It's a first; they have set fairly wide target windows for completing the various stages. They don't want it fast, they want it right -- pleasing one Minnesota cartoonist is not the objective. Parsing press articles to divine clues about 'problems' will always bear fruit, because the parser wants them to be there. It's just nitpicking.

What Kiln Ovendoor sounds like is nervous. The first modern Personal Rapid Transit is on its way (new BBC video - Real | WMP; and ITN video @CNN). ATS is poised for growth, with a new CEO with extensive rail industry experience. In Kenthorpe's future could be a hearty meal of crow, with a choice of two sides from a menu that includes complete & utter defeat, abject failure, shame, mockery, and humiliation.

The clock is ticking.

Recently: even proven technology needs testing

Dec. 24 -- Yup. Real nervous: 1, 2, 3 *

* Read our 2004 article Priming The Pump: why innovation doesn't threaten vital services; funding instruments provide a lot of protection against boondoggles (it's not perfect, but it's better than dictatorship-by-cartoonist). Ask yourself why the Propagandist wants Transit to continue to be the only economic sector that doesn't plan for innovation.

BOO! Why so nervous, Ken Avidor?

Thursday, December 13, 2007

Witness his sensitivity

The Minnesota anti-PRT propagandist is cutting-and-pasting his usual talking points on the forum at the Ithaca Journal -- the usual stuff, so I won't go into it here. But this excerpt made me look twice:

Imagine that slim guideway packed with pods each filled with standard-sized, 300 lbs [sic] Americans. Imagine the centrifugal force as the pods whipped around a corner at 40 mph. Without bracing, the slim poles would either bend or fall pulling the entire guideway down.

That is why the Raytheon PRT had massive posts and a big pipe for a guideways [sic].


Ignore his made-up claims about structural engineering and Raytheon, and focus instead on this part:

filled with standard-sized, 300 lbs [sic] Americans

This jogged my memory about a graphic he did a few years ago:

What's his freaking problem with large people?

Ken Avidor -- always Klassy with a K

Sunday, December 02, 2007

The worst conspiracy ever

Recently we discussed the reasons why Kentweed the Minnesota anti-PRT propagandist might be using conspiracy to advance his anti-innovation jihad. This time we will approach the question from a different angle:

How would a real conspiracy advance its agenda?

To review, what Labridor is alleging is that Personal Rapid Transit is an old, far-reaching conspiracy, stretching back to the 1970s. He claims it is a front, a scam, a stalking horse, for highway construction and automobile interests opposed to light rail -- including the right wing forces of Creationism!

There are some problems with this theory, not the least of which are:
  • Light rail has undergone a revival since the 1970s; in fact, no light rail project has been canceled in favor of personal rapid transit
  • In the 12 years they controlled the U.S. House, the Creationist party did not enact personal rapid transit legislation; nor did the Creationist party include personal rapid transit in its national platforms (on the other hand, the California Democrats' state platform has)
  • No criminal or civil case has ever been filed by a government or transit agency claiming PRT fraud (i.e. a scam)
  • In Minnesota, the Hiawatha light rail line was built and opened during the term of Dean Zimmermann, an ex-city council member and felon, whom Kenwood attacks for supporting PRT; and Zimmermann' s felony was not about PRT (see preceding point)
  • In 21st century Europe, PRT has been adopted as a tool for transport and energy policy by the EU and Sweden, and received regulatory approval from Britain; European PRTs are being built or implemented by major profit-seeking companies
  • PRT has been endorsed by the founder of the Congress for New Urbanism, and is being included by Foster+Partners (architect Norman Foster) in the plan for the world's first zero-waste city; that city, Masdar, will pair PRT with a light rail line!
And so on. Some conspiracy, right?

But whatever a conspiracy did, the conspirators would not create informational profiles about themselves on a public and wide-open professional networking website, describing their support of PRT in black and white, and then create links to each others' profiles.

That would make things so easy for any truthseeking conspiracy theorist. Even a stupid one.

Also: Definition of "a stupid one" -- one who links to one of his own blog posts, where the best things about it are the Comments!
And: Google sponsors the Advanced Transit Association! Google owns Blogger; Humidor blogs on Blogger --why is Humidor supporting Michele Bachmann???

Ken Avidor is a grassy knoll

Saturday, December 01, 2007

Another Talking Point cut down

Kenmore Humidor the Minnesota anti-PRT propagandist is fond of repeating (and repeating and repeating and repeating) to people that PRT would:

...cut down half the trees on their block for an elevated structure with a clear view into their bedroom window.

And yet here is the big 1970s-era PRT guideway in Morgantown, West Virginia-- AND A TREE!

And what's this on the left in this photo? Could that be -- a dogwood?

Photo: Ralf Brown (PBase)
More trees!
Photo: Ralf Brown (PBase)

I will allow, however, that those could be bedroom windows across the street. But of all the WVU student complaints Ovendoor lists about the PRT, none of them are about voyeurism. So it's too late to claim that now. Finally, another big PRT guideway--Raytheon's PRT 2000: Trees!

Yet more trees!

Remember though, this design is not being installed anywhere; guideways like Taxi 2000, ULTra and Vectus are smaller (despite any superficial resemblance). This exercise merely shows that trees and PRT guideways are not incompatible -- even big guideways.

Ken Avidor and his blue ox, babe

Tuesday, November 27, 2007

See him refer to himself in the 3rd person plural

"They're talking about PRT on MN Speak," the Minnesota anti-PRT Propagandist blogs today.

Of course, when you go there you discover the post is about him, and he's driving the discussion with his scattershot Talking Points, cartoons and distorted Photoshops. "Joe Sixpack" aka Johnny Rocketpack even chimes in with his regular lie® that the Denver Airport baggage sys- blah blah b- Zzzzzzzzz. Oh, and yet more guys who think referencing Marge vs. the Monorail is original thinking.

Also 11/27: "Interesting." See him pretend not to know the reason Taxi 2000 has no patents (of course he reads Weiner Watch -- it mentions his name!)

11/28: See him pretend again.
Plus, notice he cut-n-pasted the same Talking Point Tidbit in two different News-Leader threads: 1 .... 2
Bonus egg! -- Ken Avidor: non-digital mannequin

Be it ever so bumble, there's no place like Ken Avidor

Monday, November 26, 2007

Sunday, November 25, 2007

Why does he hate Shakespeare?

The Minnesota anti-PRT propagandist is trying his hand at cultural criticism, sniding at the Vectus brochure, "Really bad marketing blooper," with regard to the company's new brochure:

We know what he wants you to think: PRT = Huxley = Soma = dehumanized future.

That is the superficial, knee-jerk interpretation. As the rest of us know, Huxley's title refers to the line from Shakespeare's "The Tempest"--

"O brave new world, that hath such people in it." -Miranda

Huxley's story posits a nightmarish society in which many of the things that make us human have been banned, things like family, the arts,* books, science, religion, and philosophy.

PRT, a technology verified by scientific research, is therefore one of the things that would be banned in such a dehumanizing utopia.

Allow me to quote from the Wikipedia entry on Brave New World:
Additionally, stability has been achieved and is maintained via deliberately engineered and rigidly enforced social stratification. Source

Now, I'm not saying which is which, BUT-- which is the transit system of the Brave New World in Huxley's story: one that tells you what time you can travel, and that you tend to get better service if you live and work in redeveloped, gentrified areas? Or the one that includes a technology that lets you travel whenever you want, to and from anywhere you want, no matter who you are or where you live?

Obviously, Vectus would not want the negative comparison. PRT clearly adds to freedom of movement, choice and convenience, i.e. individuality. Therefore, the reference is meant to evoke Shakespeare, not Huxley; hope, not the nightmare. And any linkage to Huxley occurs in a context that Kenwood (again) shows he is oblivious to: irony.

Also today: People are asking about the Propagandist's new Upchuck video: "Has he purchased a tripod?"

* including Shakespeare, Kenmore-- this means Huxley's title is ironic
'Tis he, Ken Avidor, that hath done thee wrong.

Thursday, November 22, 2007

Big Thanksgiving Turkey

Apparently, the best the Minnesota anti-PRT propagandist can do for the Thanksgiving holiday is a quote from NEARLY THREE YEARS AGO (and just as articulate as he is). And already posted on his web page):

...the argument for the PRT system that exists out there is...well...this is a great way to add capacity very rapidly without...uh...since it's elevated you don't have the same problems with having to knock down houses and various other things...uh...y'know, but if you start looking at the system, the problem is there is no system.

if it's so great, then we'll see. If not, uh... why should we be subsidizing it?... certainly not to the tune of 600 million bucks... that's a ton of money...uh, it just doesn't make any sense to me.

I have to admit [David Strom is] consistent in his opposition to transit... even bogus, gadget transit. [ellipses in original] Source

Last time I wrote about how the typical, hysterical anti-PRT argument tends to get all convoluted, "allies become enemies and foes become friends," and we see that again here. Strom's Taxpayer League is conservative and opposed light rail, but Kenthorpe is enlisting him in the anti-PRT propaganda campaign. But wait -- isn't PRT supposed to be a right-wing anti-transit scam? Didn't Strom get the memo?

Either I have to remember to tell Larry Fabian not to give Strom his brown paper bag full of PRT cash this month, OR this is evidence that opposition to PRT, as well as support, crosses party lines. And the Minnesota anti-PRT propagandist is a turkey.

Also: Track his latest Talking Point (has he never heard of CURTAINS?)

Roast a 20-22 lb. Ken Avidor at 400 degrees for 3 1/2 - 4 hours

Wednesday, November 14, 2007

Why Conspiracy

Why would Ken Avidor choose to create and promote a conspiracy theory? Why would anyone?

It seems like a no-win affair: whether a UFO cover-up, the Illuminati or Bigfoot, alleging conspiracy automatically puts one outside the mainstream.

My guess as to the answer is: CONTROL. When you blame everything on a conspiracy you can't lose.

(1) You get to define the conspiracy. Thus, a transit technology like PRT can really be anti-transit if there is an insidious conspiracy by anti-transit highway interests.

(2) You decide who are the conspirators. For example, liberals and conservatives, corporations and environmentalists, all agreeing on an issue, indicates divergent interests have put aside differences to work on something they agree is to their mutual advantage. Unless there is a conspiracy. UPDATE-- Ken Avidor uses LinkedIn to stalk PRT advocates (12/2).
(3) Facts are only as you see them. News stories you disagree with are "puff pieces." Peer-reviewed studies you disagree with? You guys buy those. Plus, by invalidating those puff pieces and bought-and-paid-for reports, you can keep on being the sole voice of truth crying in the wilderness. You can continue calling for investigations, even though those news stories and reports were investigations.
(4) You are the smart one. Because you define the conspiracy, you have all the answers. You get to say things like "I have proof of everything I say," and describe yourself as "perhaps the leading skeptic" of PRT -- even though all the proof is circumstantial, circular or plain wrong, and you are the leading authority only because you invented the conspiracy in the first place. But it feels good to be the keeper of secret knowledge; the people who believe you call you an "expert."

A word about words -- or rather, their meanings. For there's really nothing wrong with the word conspiracy per se-- but the common usage of the word gives it a certain je ne c'est plot.

In other words, in the popular consciousness there is a difference between a conspiracy and a plan.

For instance Hillary Clinton was right about there being a 'vast right wing conspiracy' against her husband. All the evidence about Richard Mellon Scaife, the Arkansas Project, etc. are in the public record. There was a group of people with right wing sympathies, linked by money and documents, working in concert against the Clinton presidency. But Hillary Clinton was ridiculed for calling it a conspiracy, because the general public doesn't give much credence to the existence of conspiracies. She should have called it a plan.

Hence, we can say that plans and conspiracies begin with theories. But plans go on to have provable facts that link together people -- causes and outcomes. Conspiracies, therefore, do not have these features.

So we can understand Ken Avidor the Minnesota anti-PRT Propagandist by recognizing the role conspiracy plays in his arguments, and the arguments of his followers.

The conspiracy.
Certainly Ken Avidor's free 'n' easy use of "scam" and "stalking horse" are prima facie evidence that he is alleging a conspiracy. He's even gone back over 30 years, unconvincingly trying to show that the conspiracy spans the ages.

In 2004, former Minneapolis Councilman Gary Dean Zimmermann, Rep. Mark Olson and then State Senator, now Congresswoman Michele Bachmann conspired to fleece Minnesota taxpayers with a multi-million dollar boondoggle called Personal Rapid Transit (PRT).
The conspirators.
Anyone who doesn't side with him is a PRTista or gadgetbahner. This is a reality where a multi-discipline civil engineering firm is only a highway contractor because it was involved with a PRT program. But if another firm agrees with him, its highway projects are ignored. One propaganda tool is The Pod Squad (right) -- presumably they have been convicted of something, or Avidor thinks ought to be, and all riding in a PRT vehicle. But the graphic and caption together are a deception: it conveys the message that PRT is a crime. But none of them were convicted for anything to do with PRT.

And what a poor group of disembodied heads they are: no PRT projects approved; no funds secured for PRT programs; no LRT projects stopped. Aha! This just means the Avidor is effective!

And Michele Bachmann? The so-called PRT bill she sponsored in 2004 was simply to add PRT to the long list of categories of projects for which Minnesota local governments may issue bonds. And her support for PRT was so deep, that was the first and last time she did anything on PRT's behalf. She is not a PRT supporter.

The secret knowledge.
It's all circular. Name one of Ken Avidor's claims -- every single one has been knocked down. Yet he continues to repeat them, and invent new ones. The ULTra PRT gets a development project? There is no project. There is? Then ULTra isn't really PRT. It is? Then ULTra is not really a clean all-electric vehicle!

* * *

Soon things become so convoluted that allies become enemies and foes become friends. Take the light rail-only posters the Minnesota anti-PRT propagandist has cultivated on the Seattle Post-Intelligencer Local Transit Forums. I won't name names, but two of them rhyme with Scroll Not Rolled To Mole Farriers and BihardBRANSITbadvocate. Read:

Posted by [Scroll Not Rolled To Mole Farriers ] at 11/2/07 7:40 p.m. in reply to: #1488320
Last edited at 11/2/07 7:54 p.m.
Now Sierra Club and Ron Sims are in the hunt for a better plan than what Prop 1 offers for its $157 billion in taxation over 50 years. It probably won't take Sierra Club and Sims the five years that ST required to come up with ST2.

So, let me get this straight, John Niles: you have now officially endorsed bad, shallow, and pie-in-the-sky conceptual planning and analysis? Isn't that how CETA came to embrace Monorail?

Figured out yet that Metro totally made up that 50k ridership figure, and that inflation will eat those new Rapid Ride service hours up in a giffy? [sic]

John Niles / Kemper Development Co have been talking up concept-only BRT for over 10 years now.

Now, Niles wants to "pass the torch" of phony support for his non-existent BRT plan to Ron Sims, and the kooks at the Sierra Club. Wow. I didn't know you could cop out on a cop-out!

Sierra Clubbers have a hidden agenda - they want to stop economic progress more than anything else...and hardcore tolling will definitely achieve that...

. . .
Posted by [Scroll Not Rolled To Mole Farriers] at 11/12/07 4:53 p.m. in reply to: #1504294
...When "Rapid Ride" begins service around the same time Central Link starts up, it will be clear to most people that Bus Rapid Transit is really just another way of saying "I was late, because my bus was caught in traffic." Metro could have included more capital amenities to make their slow, lumbering 2nd class buses try compete with light rail, but Sims chose quantity over quality.

A thoughful [sic] conservative would take a look at the operations and maintenance costs for running such a huge fleet of buses stuck in traffic, and see that Metro's .9 cent sales tax is getting eaten alive by inflation costs associated with having so many drivers, and so many internal combustion engines on the road.

But we don't have thoughtful conservatives here. Just the bomb throwing type. And the Interstate Era dinosaur road warriors.....

Posted by [BihardBRANSITbadvocate] at 11/12/07 5:14 p.m. in reply to: #1515781
Too bad there are no local versions of Paul Weyrich around here. He even gave Philadelphia good marks for getting Route 15 re-started with streetcars, although it sat for a little bit longer, because after the reconstruction, the neighborhood activists had their alderman block the re-start. Praising a rail line in Philadelphia when they supposedly have a working Bus Rapid Transit on the other side of the Alleghenies in Pittsburgh...

See what just happened?
(1) Buses were attacked because of their O&M costs. But light rail is nothing without bus feeder transit to increase the stations' rider catchment areas. Those costs will be incurred whether the primary line-haul mode is BRT or LRT. The real desire is for LRT, not budget savings.

(2) The Sierra Club (!) was attacked for not supporting the recent Seattle-area "Prop. 1" Roads+Transit measure, which would have authorized additional future LRT projects and highway projects. Sierra, a light rail supporter, decided it only wanted the light rail. In effect, Ken Avidor's running mates are attacking Sierra for being too pro-rail. The self-described anti-"road warrior" is really fine with roads, so long as it logrolls the desired technology, LRT, ASAP.

(3) Sierra's position is explained with a conspiracy theory--"a hidden agenda." That is how a venerable pro-environment group can disagree with you, the guardian of truth.

(4) Paul Weyrich (See his Right Wing connection, Part II, 5/30) is held up as an example of a conservative we need around here! Weyrich, co-founder of the Heritage Foundation, who once told a Resmuglican meeting:
I don't want everybody to vote. Elections are not won by a majority of people, they never have been from the beginning of our country and they are not now. As a matter of fact, our leverage in the elections, quite candidly, goes up as voting populace goes down. Source (Crooks and Liars)
This is a friend of transit? A man who espouses anti-democratic values that, if carried out, would make public transit impossible? Beyond espousal -- he has had the political resources to make it happen. But he happens to have a newsletter that says nice things about the desired technology, LRT, so the Propagandist's disciples love him.

(5) Neighborhood activists are on the wrong side because they delayed the Philadelphia Route 15 streetcar. Silly residents, thinking that what happens where they live is any of their business.

* * *

We started by asking "Why Conspiracy?" For Ken Avidor, our diagnosis is Control -- perpetuating his campaign by (mis)defining his opponents and a technology. Why that should be so important could be due to the conspiracy theorist having control issues.

But I'm not claiming to be an expert.

Ken Avidor is two - two - two mints in one

Friday, November 02, 2007

How about John Garamendi?

Remember John Garamendi, the Democratic Lieutenant Governor of California?

He met with a delegation from Sweden's IST (the podcar people) in January 2007. IST's visit followed a June 2006 memorandum of understanding between Sweden and California for an exchange on renewable fuel, energy and green transportation. Garamendi had only taken office on January 8, so the IST meeting was one of his first official acts as lieutenant governor. In April, IST met with Garamendi a second time.

Just more evidence disproving the Minnesota anti-PRT propagandist's Talking Point that PRT is a right-wing anti-transit scam.

Is it possible this got started back in 2004, when Personal Rapid Transit appeared in the CalDems' platform?

The Propagandist gave the January meeting prominent coverage -- although he devoted his smearage to Swedish Environment Minister Andreas Carlgren.

Oddly, Labridor seemed to steer away from attacking Garamendi -- other than posting a photo (above) of him with Carlgren. Maybe Rodiva thought that'd put the fear of goddess into him.

Some background on Garamendi:

  • Peace Corps, 1966-68 (Ethiopia)
  • State Assemblyman (1974-76) and Senator (1976-90).
  • First California insurance commissioner, 1991-95 and again 2003-07; backs universal health coverage
  • Bruce Babbitt's Deputy Interior Secretary under Clinton; on the Clinton Administration negotiation team at the Kyoto Climate Change Conference; was one of the officials who sounded the alarm about the dangers to New Orleans of global climate change.
  • In run for lieutenant governor, at the time was only candidate anywhere to receive endorsement from Al Gore.
  • Currently being talked about as the Democratic nominee for governor in 2010.

And in case there are still lingering doubts as to Garamendi's Democratic bona fides, here is a video of his appearance on MSNBC, in which he slams Dubya's showboating on the California wildfires.

Yet to date Garamendi has not denounced PRT as a right-wing anti-transit scam. Clearly he is either (1) dumber than the Minnesota anti-PRT propagandist, or (2) part of the conspiracy!

If he's not with Kenthorpe, he must be against him -- so Lt. Gov. John Garamendi is a PRTista, a tool of the anti-transit highway lobby! Is he one of those "left-wingers like Zimmermann"?

If so, shouldn't the Propagandist start smearing him straight away?

We're waiting!

The Ken Avidor / soon we'll be making another run / the Ken Avidor promises something for everyone

Friday, October 26, 2007

There's something about Bigpedia

Over at SenseUp (which has declared Get On Board!PRT to be "brilliant"), the Minnesota anti-PRT propagandist trotted out this new little trial balloon (crossposted at Dump Mark Olson). We might call it Help, I'm Being Suppressed, Poor Me:

There's something called Bigpedia that uses a lot of the material from the Wikipedia PRT page… [ellipses in original] but also includes facts that PRTistas like ATren have kept out of the Wikipedia page including links to skeptical sites like mine and Light Rail Now... Source (what SoundPRT thinks about Light Rail Now)

Bigpedia? 'About 3 pages of hits on Google' Bigpedia? Notice that he actually posts three variations on the same theme between 5:39 and 5:44pm (1, 2, 3) -- two beginning identically with "There's something called Bigpedia." At this rate he'll soon drive Bigpedia's hits through the roof!

Bigpedia's one of those sites that copies Wikipedia content, presumably in order to attract hits. In this case, two year old content about PRT, as A Transportation Enthusiast so ably points out in this response:

What [MN anti-PRT propagandist] doesn’t tell you is that this is a verbatim copy of a 2 year old version of the Wikipedia page! See the corresponding Wikipedia version - it’s from April 2005!

Why are those links gone from Wikipedia now? Because they were found to be unreliable! In fact, many of the "disadvantages" you cite were removed by the consensus of multiple editors, when it became clear that there were no reliable sources to support them.

Here's another interesting tidbit: also in April 2005, [MN anti-PRT propagandist]basically junked that version of the Wikipedia article for his own propaganda-laced version, which was promptly reverted by another editor. So, [MN anti-PRT propagandist], two years ago you saw the need to replace this entire text with your own version, yet now you are promoting it? Why did you change your mind?

And here's the kicker: do you want to know where the link to [MN anti-PRT propagandist]'s website came from? He added it himself! Check out this edit from 2004, where IP address adds the link to [MN anti-PRT propagandist]'s PRT pages. Now, browse to the contribution history for that IP address, and you will find this other edit in which [MN anti-PRT propagandist] identifies himself with a byline!

So, let’s review: (1) the Bigpedia article is a verbatim copy of the Wikipedia article from 2 years ago, (2) an article with which [MN anti-PRT propagandist] himself was so unhappy that he replaced completely, and which (3) contained links back to [MN anti-PRT propagandist]'s anti-PRT site that were added by [MN anti-PRT propagandist] himself, and which (4) also contained skeptical claims that at least half a dozen other Wikipedia editors agreed to remove because they were unsupportable.

Thanks for that link, [MN anti-PRT propagandist], and for once again proving my point that almost all anti-PRT sentiment on the net can be traced back to you.


, as the kids say, yo' face!

She says, hey babe, take a walk on the Ken Avidor

Thursday, October 25, 2007

See his Right Wing connection, Part III

Kiln Ovendoor the Minnesota anti-PRT propagandist is up to his usual amusing antics.

His favorite smear of late seems to be 'only right wingers support PRT' (Case Closed, 10/18). Recall that he thinks real liberals have to support light rail. Now he's spewing it forth on the website of the Cornell Sun. He writes --

Mountains? More like Moehills [sic!] of Nonsense...

...Let's start with the one mentioned in this opinion piece - JPods:

Even 19-year-old Christopher (ATE) thinks it is a "very immature concept".

...of course, that fact doesn't stop the PRT promoters at Wikipedia from listing it on the Wikipedia PRT page.

Here's a picture of the JPod prototype from the JPod website... note the black duct tape on the windows and the "Support the Troops" sticker.

Will every JPod have a "Support the Troops" sticker?

(ellipses in original)

Mr. Avidor clearly means the Support the Troops sticker means JPods people are right wing; PRT is right wing. Because of a sticker? But don't we all support the troops? It's the Bush policy three-quarters of us oppose. (Furthermore, why would JPods use a sticker to win right wing support, if right wingers are supposed to already support PRT?)

Why is Avidor, someone who says he's a Democrat, sniding support for the men and women in uniform? The Resmuglicans want Americans to think Democrats don't support the troops. Therefore, isn't the Minnesota anti-PRT propagandist in fact supporting the right wing, Resmuglican position?

Nice going, Kenwood.

Ana Ken Avidor vita baby

Thursday, October 18, 2007

Case Closed, or: I win the chess match

The Propagandist smears two liberal politicians

This is good! It's from the Seattle P-I Local Transit Forum. Long, but it's so worth it reading all the way to the Big Finish! (Skip to Big Finish)

Seattle PRT Proponents Excited by Daventry "PRT" Demo


Posted by PRTskeptic at 10/10/07 7:49 p.m.
Last edited at 10/10/07 7:50 p.m.

CETA member Prof. Schneider links to a BBC demo Video:


The Seattle PRT forum is excited about Daventry too:


But, not the ordinary folks in Daventry:


...and the mayor of Daventry quit:


Posted by PRTskeptic at 10/11/07 6:10 a.m. in reply to: #1496672

The Guardian goes Gadgetbahn:

"The Morgantown Personal Rapid Transit project is completed in West Virginia, connecting the city's five university campuses. Purists argue that it is light rail, not PRT"


Seattle's David Gow (Mr Grant) is upset:


...and in Daventry:

"Be positive about Pods":


Posted by PRTskeptic at 10/11/07 8:44 a.m. in reply to: #1496845


'Get off our backs and give us a chance'

By Alice Dyer

DAVENTRY Town Council has hit back at claims it is 'dysfunctional'.
The comments were made in last week’s Daventry Express by Chris Millar, leader of Daventry District Council, following the shock resignation of town mayor Alan Gauton.

He also said there must be something ‘rotten at the core’ of the body, and called for council members to stop squabbling and start serving the public.

Lynne Taylor, town council leader said Cllr’s Millar’s comments were ‘totally unfounded’ and ‘inappropriate’

“To seek to denigrate a public authority and its members without any direct knowledge of the manner in which it conducts its business is improper,” she said.

Mr Gauton quit his role as mayor and chairman of the council because he was unhappy with how the authority was being run.

His departure followed a string of councillors and staff members quitting the authority.

Cllr Taylor admitted the town council had suffered problems recently, but added Daventry was being served by a ‘dynamic’ mix of people dedicated to serving the public.

“So Daventry District Council get off our backs. Give us a chance to show what we can do for the people of Daventry,” she said.

The town council, which currently has five empty seats, was set up four years ago to look after services like hanging baskets, Christmas lights, the war memorial and allotments. It receives more than £300,000 a year of taxpayers’ money.

....how much of that money was spent hosting the PRT pod people?

Posted by PRTskeptic at 10/11/07 9:14 a.m. in reply to: #1496874


Decay of 'forgotten' estate

By Alice Dyer

WHILE the rest of the town seems to be heading for prosperity, residents living on a Daventry estate feel they have been forgotten.

As Daventry District Council continues to reveal ambitious plans for the future, including state-of-the-art transport systems, new homes, shops and 21st century facilities, residents say The Grange has been left to fall apart.

Ann Smith, chairman of the Grange Residents’ Association, said: “The estates have been left to go into disrepair. Some parts of The Grange look like a slum.

“The council wants the people of Daventry to be proud of the town they live in, but how can they when it’s like this? It’s like a dumping area now and it’s a mess.”

The Daventry Express visited the estate this week with Mrs Smith and Daventry district councillor Colin Poole to see the worst affected areas.

The whole estate is showing signs of serious neglect with broken paving slabs, vast amounts of weeds, broken benches, damage to the children’s play area, inadequate lighting, bushes growing over walkways and litter.

Walls have been smashed, tiles are falling off walkways and garage doors are hanging off. There is graffiti, boarded up windows and doors, broken fences and glass and children’s toys, furniture and other household items which have been dumped in the street.

Mrs Smith said: “I’m angry – we should not have to live in this squalor.

Posted by Mr_Grant at 10/15/07 11:26 a.m. in reply to: #1496881

Why don't you quote the rest of the "Mrs Smith" article, instead of cherrypicking?

"I've lived on The Grange for 30 years and at one time I was so proud to have a house here, but over the past 10 to 15 years, I've watched it go down hill.["]

10 to 15 years! PRT planning in Daventry is 2-3 years old at most. You can't blame PRT for inattentive local government. Read more

Posted by PRTskeptic at 10/15/07 3:16 p.m. in reply to: #1500204

Here's some more letters from Daventry...

Pod scheme is up in the air

It will be interesting to see how close the test track along Eastern Way for the proposed new transport system comes to reality.

A brief investigation will show that from a safety standpoint any new PRT system will have to be completely separate from existing pedestrian and vehicle routes.

The potential supplier's own web site states that where the track passes over roads there has to be 5.7 metres of headroom and for pedestrian transit 2.5 metres of headroom.

They also estimate that in an urban environment, such as Daventry, over 90 per cent of the system will have to be elevated. So if the system gets approval, much of it including the stations, will be almost 20 feet up in the air!

How much of the test track will be at this level?

Allan Simmonds

Living in Disneyland?

I wonder if the people of Daventry share the enthusiasm of the council for the proposed PRT system reported last week.
At an estimated cost of £80 million, which will be inevitably optimistic, the comment "the officers in Daventry have the will and motivation to try something that has never been tried before" raises questions about the council's expertise and judgement.

Coming on top of the proposed marina and canal link, would we be wrong in asking whether the councillors are spending too much time on 'Disneyland' dreams instead of concentrating on the town and county management?

It would also be interesting to hear from them where the funds are coming from for the project; the recent conference and the consultancy firm instructed. Personally, I have considerable doubts about the practicalities of the scheme anyway.

G. Pearse
Highlands Drive,

Town is world leader already

Daventry needn't worry about this new pod travel system – as it is already a leader! Leader of the highest petrol prices that is!
For the last four or five months the petrol prices at all garages in Daventry have stayed the same – they do not compete.

The petrol price has gone down everywhere else but Daventry! In the last month I have found petrol in Devon, Somerset, Essex and central London considerably cheaper (up to 5p a litre less) – surprising as the latter two are supposed to be more expensive to live in! Even petrol on the motorway services is the same as Daventry's or cheaper.

Why are we allowing ourselves to be ripped off?
Lets see some competition between the local garages!
G Bottomley
Elder Drive

Tackle the real issues

Well done Daventry District Council, yet another brilliant idea...not!
Pods – well at least the kids will have something to do surfing, shooting, burning and wrecking the pods as they go round.

If there's £80 million on offer why not develop something for them to do, bin these crazy ideas and stop this town going completely down the toilet.

There is too much housing, too many people and so very little to do. I've lived in this town for 39 years and watched it slowly be destroyed by the local council who don't have the town's real population at heart. No police, broken roads, run-down estates, feral kids – these are the issues that need addressing not some hare-brained scheme like pods.
Wake up and smell the coffee DDC.

Name and address

Nice idea but wrong scheme

I have no wish to run down everything Daventry District Council comes up with and indeed it should be applauded for its forward thinking because, like it or not, oil will run out eventually and we must look for alternative soloutions to the car as we know it.
But I have to say I can not really see the pod as a realistic answer because if you think about it a horse and cart, although a lot slower, would be a better form of transport taking you closer to your home and using or causing very little carbon emission.

The pod system is bound to fail while there are still cars giving the public door-to-door conection and if you try to stop the entrance of cars to our shopping centre, people will simply go else where thus killing the town centre.

Leslie Weatherley
Via email

Posted by Mr_Grant at 10/15/07 4:49 p.m. in reply to: #1500354

Of course there are skeptical letterwriters. It's a British national pastime.

I think you forgot this story though: "Pods prove a huge hit"

Oh wait, you didn't forget -- you ignored it, you naughty cherrypicker you.

Posted by PRTskeptic at 10/15/07 8:25 p.m. in reply to: #1500482


That's what PRT guru J. Edward Anderson said would be the SOP for getting passengers off disabled PRT pods:

Mr. Springer: Is there an evacuation plan

Mr. Ed Anderson: Yes. With cherrypickers, ropes, etc.


BTW... Does anyone know if David Gow is paid to promote PRT?

Posted by Mr_Grant at 10/15/07 8:54 p.m. in reply to: #1500653

So? That kind of cherrypicker is a very safe basket on an arm mounted to a big truck. People use them every day. There are also scissors lifts you can put on trucks too.

But everyone who knows PRT (and isn't a PRTphobe) knows Anderson's preferred evacuation plan is for another vehicle to push the breakdown to the next station.

Why so concerned about my compensation, [K#n]? Just puttin' out a general call for snitches now, eh? Would it help if I bought a copy of your book?

Posted by PRTskeptic at 10/15/07 9:20 p.m. in reply to: #1500669

Another great answer from J. Edward Anderson:

Question: How do we deal with squirrels, birds, raccoons, etc.?

Answer: Small creatures could nest in the bottom corners of my covered guideway without bothering anything. But, the plan is to build a maintenance vehicle equipped with a light, a television camera, and a high-pressure hose. It will be operated from time to time late at night to inspect the guideway interior to remove debris.

Right, lots of cities are going to want a transportation system that rains soggy critters etc. on pedestrians, buildings and vehicles.

Posted by Mr_Grant at 10/15/07 9:35 p.m. in reply to: #1500688

[K#n], you've just given an argument that can also be used to argue that (in your language) "Telephone Poles Are a Joke" and "Power Lines Are a Joke." No one's going to want electricity infrastructure that birds can sit on and poop on your head, or that rain can drip off of!

In fact, why don't you go all the way and call your new blog "Any Tall Thing, That Something Can Fall From Onto Another Thing, is a Joke"?

Prediction: your next talking point in this thread will be PRT can't run in the snow.

Posted by PRTskeptic at 10/16/07 6:19 a.m. in reply to: #1500696

Not my "talking point". I read about it it from the Taxi 2000 Corporation prospectus (Risk Factors):

"This technology [Ultra] is different in many respects from the Taxi 2000 technology and has some distinct disadvantages. It uses a larger and heavier guideway that we believe will be more obtrusive and more expensive. It uses larger cars that we believe will be more expensive. Because it uses rotary propulsion and braking, it cannot operate in ice and snow conditions and cannot run at the close headways planned for the Taxi 2000 system. Because it uses battery power, it is speed limited. At this point it lacks a complete control system, as well as other vital features of a commercial product."

BTW... is Morrie Anderson still CEO of Taxi 2000?

Posted by PRTskeptic at 10/16/07 6:58 a.m. in reply to: #1500696
Last edited at 10/16/07 7:00 a.m.

... of course, the Taxi 2000 vehicle is unsuited for snow too. The way the sloping roof opens with the door would dump snow (and water if raining) onto the passengers... see photo:


Clearly, the Taxi 2000 pod was designed more to look "futuristic" than practical. Knowing that, the question is why are PRT promoters working so hard to promote it and who is paying them and why?

Posted by Mr_Grant at 10/16/07 9:23 a.m. in reply to: #1500852

You mean the Risk Factors document you claimed revealed safety concerns that make PRT unworkable? And then had to backpedal when it turned out to be a standard investor safe harbor statement? Two years ago? Ahhahahahaha!

Posted by Mr_Grant at 10/16/07 9:36 a.m. in reply to: #1500877

the Taxi 2000 vehicle is unsuited for snow too. The way the sloping roof opens with the door would dump snow (and water if raining) onto the passengers

Do you know the difference between a prototype and a production model? How WOULD one deal with such a problem? Hmmm... I don't know... how about a gutter, like on the edge of a car roof?

Prediction: your next Talking Point will be PRT doesn't have air conditioning. Instead, why not surf over to Vectus.se, where the new video includes a nice shot of the cabin's HVAC panel.

I must say, [K#n], you are up to your usual quality standards. Recently I corresponded with someone who wrote that he did not respond to your disinformation 2 years ago, because he thought it would help you sharpen your arguments. He is so pleased to have been proven wrong.

Posted by PRTskeptic at 10/16/07 11:01 a.m. in reply to: #1500921
Last edited at 10/16/07 11:04 a.m.

That Vectus "HVAC panel" is in a dangerous position for heating a small pod. The lack of headroom means somebody could get a nasty burn on their head if they bumped into it or comes close to it... which is exactly what happens in this video:


The HVAC on the top also means cold feet... maybe not a problem in Seattle, but it would be in Minnesota where it can get pretty darn cold.

Also, it seems PRT is losing support even among the far right-wing of the MN Republican Party:


DFL candidate Elwyn Tinklenberg's campaign told me they will challenge Congresswoman Michele Bachmann on her support for PRT.

So, who are the public officials in Minnesota who support PRT these days, Mr. Gow?

Posted by Mr_Grant at 10/16/07 11:17 a.m. in reply to: #1500970

[K#n], you are really making it up now! The HVAC panel will put out enough heat for the small space -- they won't be using it to make stir-fry.

What's more, Vectus is being designed to satisfy SWEDISH weather conditions.

As for Tinklenberg, I wish him luck.

Posted by PRTskeptic at 10/16/07 1:39 p.m. in reply to: #1500984

I'm sure you do...

Elwyn Tinklenberg was Transportation Commissioner under Jesse Ventura. Tinklenberg had to put up with anti-LRT, pro-PRT arguments from PRTpromoters like David Morris:


Is David Morris still a supporter of PRT now that LRT is a huge success in Minnesota?

Posted by Mr_Grant at 10/16/07 2:01 p.m. in reply to: #1501105
Last edited at 10/16/07 2:03 p.m.

Morris? Why don't call him up and ask him? Or have you given him the Larry Fabian treatment?

Are we really going to keep doing this thing we do? You resurrect some old talking point, I knock it down again, you drop it and raise another one, I debunk that one too? I have nothing but time.

But if it would be more convenient, I have an offer for you. I could design for you a web page that lists all your propaganda in numerical order. Then when you want to troll at, for example, Daily Kos, you can just type "Number 4!" and link to it. Or when you want to ask how I make a living, "Does anyone know if David Gow is Number 17?"

Anyway, it's just an idea. Let me know.

Posted by PRTskeptic at 10/16/07 2:16 p.m. in reply to: #1501119

Why can't you view the Daily Kos story on Podcars anymore?

Was the guy who posted that Daily Kos Podcar story the Mayor of Fountain Valley, CA?

Y'know... this guy?:


Posted by Mr_Grant at 10/16/07 2:26 p.m. in reply to: #1500970
Last edited at 10/16/07 2:31 p.m.

[K#n], I knew you'd want to have this information about your "no headroom" talking point (prt.blip.tv) ASAP.

Why should this reporter have trouble when others didn't?

Putting on my old TV Production hat, it is obvious what happened. The cameraman was standing outside and had her framed too high. Being a good TV reporter, she did her best to stay in frame and stood upright too soon.

Should you be able to stand up straight inside? Why? All rides on PRT are intended to be seated.

This was my official debunking of the "no headroom" Talking Point; please make a note of it.

Posted by Mr_Grant at 10/16/07 2:29 p.m. in reply to: #1501131
Last edited at 10/16/07 2:33 p.m.

Why can't you view the Daily Kos story on Podcars anymore?

The post-conference article has been reposted on Google Groups in Transport-Innovators, and in SeattlePRT on Yahoo Groups. Sorry, your trolling seems to have been omitted.

But, I saved a copy of the whole page; I can send it to you if you want.

Hope this helps!

Posted by PRTskeptic at 10/17/07 4:53 a.m. in reply to: #1501138



Why is he so upset?

Posted by Mr_Grant at 10/17/07 9:18 a.m. in reply to: #1501449
Last edited at 10/17/07 9:22 a.m.

Not "upset"; try "outraged." He explains why right there in the Wiki Diff.

Sorry, but what does this have to do with any of the things you have brought up in this thread? Try picking one, and stick to discussing it with others until you understand what you've gotten wrong.

Unless your purpose is not to discuss or understand, but rather just to simply regurgitate Talking Points?

Posted by PRTskeptic at 10/17/07 10:00 a.m. in reply to: #1501514

You agree then with this blogger?:


Posted by Mr_Grant at 10/17/07 10:46 a.m. in reply to: #1501536

Agree with what? That you do a fair bit of wiki-editing? I wasn't aware there was any doubt about that. Need me to stipulate to that? OK; or as you would say -- "Whatever."

Again, pick a subject and stick to it. Add to that: be clear.

Posted by PRTskeptic at 10/17/07 12:27 p.m. in reply to: #1501558

Wasn't Cincinnati supposed to get a PRT system? What happened with that?

Oh, never mind:


Cincinnati will unveil plans Tuesday on how to pay for a four-mile, $100 million downtown streetcar line that advocates believe will contribute $2 billion to the city’s economy and transform Over-the-Rhine.

The plan’s cheerleaders include politicians, transit activists and urban developers.

Guess all that "debunking" didn't convince anyone.

Posted by Mr_Grant at 10/17/07 2:53 p.m. in reply to: #1501625

Kenwood, stop pretending you don't know what happened with Cincinnati.

Coy is not clever.

Posted by PRTskeptic at 10/17/07 6:31 p.m. in reply to: #1501727

I thought you would know. The Skyloop website is still up, but it hasn't been updated for a while:


Is Forward Quest going to try to bring up PRT again?

Posted by Mr_Grant at 10/17/07 7:39 p.m. in reply to: #1501851

Stop pretending you haven't known the answer to that question since on or before Sept. 26, 2006.

That's two Skyloop questions in a row though. Way to stay focused.

Posted by PRTskeptic at 10/17/07 8:32 p.m. in reply to: #1501875

Thank you for reminding me to stay on topic... back to PRT in Daventry:


Straight out of Springfield

This whole 'pod' scheme rings a bell to me. I think DDC has been watching too many episodes of the Simpsons. Episode 71 to be exact, entitled 'Marge Vs. the Monorail'.

The plot focuses around the town of Springfield buying a monorail from a conman, which ends in disaster! By the looks of the size of these pods, you won't fit in them with any shopping and if you have a buggy you can forget it! Does this also mean that the Daventry Dart drivers will be out of a job?

I agree with the recent letters in the Gusher – the pods will just get wrecked by the rogue kids of Daventry.

It's about time they stopped skipping with the pixies and thought about a bowling complex, cinema or something similar for families and teenagers alike to do in their spare time. Let's face it, there's nothing else to do in this town!

The pods are just another thing to add onto the 'list of stupidity' by the council alongside a marina with no canal. If it has the money for the pods why doesn't it have the money to build the canal? It's about time it started asking the residents what they would like, instead of trying to get on the 'global map'. We may be on the map as Cllr Millar states, but it will be as a laughing stock, not for anything great.

T Nairn
Braunston Road
Last Updated: 17 October 2007 3:55 PM

Posted by Mr_Grant at 10/17/07 8:46 p.m. in reply to: #1501908

Ohhhh! 'PRT is like the Simpsons monorail episode' -- how original!

Your point is that this is the level of debate that should decide public policy questions? I shall make a note of it.

Posted by PRTskeptic at 10/18/07 9:03 a.m. in reply to: #1501921

Please do... and please also make a note of this item from today's SC Times:


"Severson and Rep. Mark Olson, R-Big Lake, called for new approaches to funding and for studying transportation alternatives, such as a system of elevated rails on which small pods travel a fixed route, known as Personal Rapid Transit.

Is Rep. Dan Severson, R-Sauk Rapids a liberal, Mr. Gow?

Posted by Mr_Grant at 10/18/07 9:50 a.m. in reply to: #1502066
Last edited at 10/18/07 9:52 a.m.

Hmmm, that rings a bell; why does this sound so familiar -- oh yeah, more Talking Points.

Your conspiracy theory doesn't work -- PRT-endorser EU is not right-wing. [PRT]-developing Sweden is not right-wing. Peter Calthorpe of the Congress for New Urbanism is not right-wing. The Short Elliott firm you hate so much gives more to Democrats. PRT has appeared in a state Democratic platform, but no state GOP platforms that I can find. Where was the federal PRT legislation during the 13 years the Resmuglicans controlled Congress?

Want to dump Smoochy Bachmann and Slappy Olson? I hope you do. But PRT is still just a technology. And you are, like today's weather, all wet.

Posted by Mr_Grant at 10/18/07 1:58 p.m. in reply to: #1502066
Last edited at 10/18/07 2:00 p.m.

Hey Nedken,

I knows you loves your Flash videos, so you and your fan club should watch this one of Gus Ayer (you know, the guy you spammed at Daily Kos) at the Uppsala conference. He talks about using PRT to do sustainable smart development and reduce automobile use. In the Q&A he also decries the right-wing news media.

Then watch this video of the other politician who spoke in favor of PRT -- an Uppsala official from the Social Democrats. That's the democratic socialists, Kenworth.

Are THEY liberals, Mr. [Av!d@r]?

Lots of other videos from the conference too.

Posted by PRTskeptic at 10/18/07 3:01 p.m. in reply to: #1502186

There will always be a few left-wingers like Zimmermann... but I think we all know what motivated him now.

PRT has no support among the DFL leadership in the MN Legislature.

Thanks for that Podcar page, Mr. Gow. I especially liked the presentation by Chris Perkins of Unimodal/Skytran... funny when his computer crashed.

He mentioned grants from the USDOT and NASA for Unimodal... is that true? I can't find anything about it on the web.

Thanks again.

Posted by Mr_Grant at 10/18/07 3:27 p.m. in reply to: #1502204
Last edited at 10/18/07 3:36 p.m.

"left-wingers like Zimmermann"

So liberals who support PRT, from anywhere in the world, are corrupt?

That is a smear of breathtaking proportions, and a conspiracy of impossible complexity.

My post specifically asked you about Ayer, and Pelling of Uppsala. Do you have any proof they are corrupt?

Posted by PRTskeptic at 10/18/07 9:08 p.m. in reply to: #1502215

I was only talking about Zimmermann.


Posted by Mr_Grant at 10/18/07 10:41 p.m. in reply to: #1502353
Last edited at 10/18/07 10:44 p.m.

No, I'm afraid you can't get out of it that easily. Rewind:

1. You wrote @1502066 "Is Rep. Dan Severson, R-Sauk Rapids a liberal, Mr. Gow?" Which is part of your Talking Point that only right-wingers support PRT.

2. @1502186 I wrote about Gus Ayer and the "Uppsala official" Pelling, and asked you "Are THEY liberals, Mr. [Labridor]?"

3. Your answer immediately following @1502204: "There will always be a few left-wingers like Zimmermann... but I think we all know what motivated him now." Anyone who knows your 'work' knows this means Zimmermann was convicted for taking bribes.

Your meaning clearly was Ayer and Pelling are like Zimmermann, corrupt.

4. After I called you on this smear, your excuse @1502353: "I was only talking about Zimmermann." REALLY? You were answering a question about Ayer and Pelling! Why then bring up the corrupt Zimmermann at all?

The fact, Kenthorpe, is that you have no evidence that PRT is a right wing anti-transit conspiracy, you never have, and you never will. When shown liberals who support PRT you smear them. Your 'strategy' is nothing more than smearing any PRT supporter and adding them to your list of conspirators.

You are just like the right wingers you claim to oppose: when challenged with truth and facts you attack the messenger.

Ladies and gentlemen, I rest my case.


Hope you enjoyed it!

The thread in the P-I Forum (while it lasts, they clear old threads)

Oct. 19 -- The last entry has been deleted! Who ran crying to mommy this time??? (I have reposted an edited version, we'll see what happens)

Here is the repost:


No, I'm afraid you can't get out of it that easily. Rewind:

1. You wrote @1502066 "Is Rep. Dan Severson, R-Sauk Rapids a liberal, Mr. Gow?" Which is part of your Talking Point that only right-wingers support PRT.

2. @1502186 I wrote about Gus Ayer and the "Uppsala official" Pelling, and asked you "Are THEY liberals, Mr. [MN anti-PRT propagandist]?"

3. Your answer immediately following @1502204: "There will always be a few left-wingers like Zimmermann... but I think we all know what motivated him now." Anyone who knows your 'work' knows this means Zimmermann was convicted for taking bribes.

4. After I called you on this, your excuse @1502353: "I was only talking about Zimmermann." REALLY? You were answering a question about Ayer and Pelling! Why then bring up the corrupt Zimmermann at all?

The fact is that you have no evidence that PRT is a right wing anti-transit conspiracy, do you?

It doesn't exist, even though you've had this and other opportunities to present it.

Ladies and gentlemen, I rest my case.

Oct. 21-- He can't wait to tar Ithaca liberal with the Zimmermann brush; maybe it's artistic envy?

Ken Avidor keeps his face in a jar by the door