On the occasion of the approval of an Amritsar PRT

Today we take note of the Punjab Infrastructure Development Board's approval of an urban PRT for the city of Amritsar, India.

Let's see what Ken Avidor the Minnesota anti-PRT propagandist has said about Amritsar. Please welcome back Mr. Side By Side Comparison:

Avidor sez:	Meh:
With only "revenue service trials" at Heathrow completed, ULTra has teamed up with Fairwood India to propose building an ambitious PRT system in Amritsar, India. "The Personal Rapid Transport (PRT) – developed by our ULTra PRT, UK – is a revolutionary new transportation system, which has been operationalized in London (Heathrow airport) after 20 years of development." "Operationalized"?	Yes, Ken, "operationalized." It's a word, the past participle of operationalize, meaning to make operational. I know what this is! This is like that one time, when your only comment about the M.I.S.T.E.R. PRT was "Polish PRT?" -- isn't it, Ken? They speak English in India, Ken, English is one of India's two official languages. You might have heard of a little thing called the Raj?
The map for the Amritsar PRT is here. There is no indication that the citizens of Amritsar had any input in creating the route and the proposed destinations on the map. There has already been criticism that the PRT project "would harm historic Walled City of Amritsar and would hamper tourism in the city.	He's pulling it out of his butt. He has no idea what public input had occurred or was planned, or what Indian law requires. We can pretty much count on it being different from how we do it in America since, you know, it's a different country. Actually, the whole purpose of the PRT project is to serve some of the 100,000 religious pilgrims a week who visit (some might say tour) the city's world-famous Golden Temple. How could a low-profile transit system possibly get in the way of that?
One reason that PRT never goes anywhere is the PRT guys never engage the public in any meaningful way. Source Dec. 4, 2010	It's not the job of "the PRT guys" to engage the public, "the PRT guys" don't make the decisions. Officials of the various state and city jurisdictions are the ones who lead the process, they are answerable to their citizens. I'm going to assume whatever public input regulations they have were followed, since India is the world's most biggest democracy.

We know what kind of public engagement Ken likes. He likes it when the citizens are angry about PRT, because that's the output of his international Luddite propaganda campaign, waged in website comment forums and in the op-ed pieces he has gotten published from time to time.

Ken loves when citizens get angry about PRT, and I'm sure he's helped stir it up. When the District government of Daventry, England was planning PRT, Ken gleefully posted and reposted the public's negative, "pod off" reaction to the project (See? Governments do engage the public about PRT). When I was doing background research on the Daventry planning process, I communicated with a District official who said they had received anti-PRT cartoons. Gee, I wonder who sent those.

An angry populace is also no doubt what Ken was hoping for when he was agitating against the PRT initiative by the municipal government of Winona, Minnesota. A centerpiece of his campaign involved drawing attention to local Teabagger opposition to PRT, in the form of Teabag city council candidate Joshua Chasco. Nobody disrupts a town hall meeting like Teabaggers.

Teabaggers disrupt town hall meeting on health care reform, 2009

gPRT

More about the size of his n

Editor's note: We continue beta-testing the change to one of the oldest editorial policies of "PRT is a Joke" IS A JOKE. For a limited time, The Name of the Minnesota anti-PRT propagandist will be shown -- although special formatting will be used.

Wait, I had something else lying around needing to be debunked. Ah, here we go:

Citizens on Both Sides of the Atlantic Say No to Personal Rapid Transit

Almost a year ago, Chris Millar leader of the Daventry District Council told the Daventry Express, "The eyes of the world are on Daventry with this project." The project he was talking about was a plan to install a futuristic "Personal Rapid Transit" (PRT, Podcars) system in the quiet market town of Daventry, England, population 22,36. [sic]

Now, it appears the plan to bring the much-hyped "revolution in sustainable public transport" to Daventry has been called off... what happened? [ellipsis in original]

Source

"Citizens on Both Sides of the Atlantic." Man; how many people are required to take a position before you start generalizing like that?

Fast forward to the April, 2009 when The Gusher published an article titled "Pod Off! Residents oppose Daventry PRT scheme"

More than 100 Daventry townspeople voiced their opposition to proposals for a pod transport network in the town at a public meeting on Monday night.

100 people out of the 22,367 who live in Daventry (town)? Why, that's a sample size of four tenths of a percent (0.004). And one tenth of a percent (0.001) of the population of the wider Daventry district.

I only mention this now because, recently, I helpfully tried to bring this to Kenny-Boy's attention! I placed this comment on the Daventry article he posted on his Viropop stalkblog (the one he set up after I started blogging on Viropop):

Population of Daventry District: 71838
Population of Daventry Town: 22367
Number of members of "Stop the Daventry POD"*: 70

Awww, but Avidor censored it.

So when Ken writes "both sides of the Atlantic," alert readers are probably wondering, Daventry is just one side of the Atlantic -- what about the other side? How many citizens in the U.S. said No to PRT? Ken only bothers to mention Peg Tully in Ithaca, New York. A sample size of 1 out 304 million Americans is 0.00000000329 (0.00000000296 if you include 34 million Canadians).


*A Facebook page

This just in: PRT Is a Joke IS A JOKE is the #2 Ken Avidor site on the web!

Fun comparison:

• Number of active PRT-haters: 4
• Number of Alan Keyes for President voters, 2008: 47,694

gPRT

Mr. No Research

Editor's note: We continue beta-testing the change to one of the oldest editorial policies of "PRT is a Joke" IS A JOKE. For a limited time, The Name of the Minnesota anti-PRT propagandist will be shown -- although special formatting will be used.

Again a Kena Wei (Ken Avidor) post that shows he does no research!

Campaign to Protect Rural England Opposes Personal Rapid Transit

From the CPRE's paper (PDF) "Eco-towns: living a greener future - CPRE's response" that can be downloaded HERE:

an integrated approach to transport, across a district as a whole, should be taken to maximise potential for journeys to and from eco-towns to be made in a sustainable fashion, rather than relying on unproven technologies such as Personal Rapid Transit

Aside from the fact that this is another example of advocacy -- remember, it doesn't determine policy -- and CPRE is perfectly entitled to take this position, there are some oddities.

1. The CPRE is responding to this consultation paper from the Department of Communities and Local Government (DCLG). It does not mention PRT or podcars.


2. What DCLG does mention are:

• frequent, reliable and easily accessible public transport for longer journeys, that residents are encouraged to use to ensure that they are well connected to key destinations within the ecotown and with nearby settlements and local supply networks. This may include such measures as bus priority schemes, car clubs and additional provision of community transport, as well as good access to information on transport options, including real time information in the home and personalised travel planning for every resident.

Ooooh, how pie-in-the-sky!

What is the plan right now for using PRT in rural England? Let's see, in rural-ish Daventry, it would be a local network, eventually connecting to the train station. Is this not an "integrated approach," local, but also connecting people to "nearby settlements"?

But the point is, PRT is not being put forward for the service niche CPRE is concerned about, transit "across a district as a whole." English districts (below), or 'shire counties', are pretty big, Ken. No one is talking about PRT "across" districts.



(Note to readers: Expert recommendations DCLG has received about PRT are: (a) consider PRT as a way to avoid building a new highway, and (b) consider trams and PRT as a way to avoid creating more local congestion. And these were not general recommendations, but rather specific to two of the proposed eco-towns.)

What you should have researched and written about, Ken, is the question -- what was CPRE actually responding to?

Maybe they were motivated by this kind of thinking:

Critics characterise CPRE as

• proponents of a drawbridge mentality (i.e. "I've moved to the countryside but I don't want others to do likewise")
• motivated by luddite nostalgia, or
• motivated by an egotist NIMBY stance^[4]

In December 2008 George Monbiot of The Guardian interviewed CPRE head, Shaun Spiers, about the organisation's opposition to wind farms but not opencast [open pit] coal mines. George Monbiot asked why he couldn't find any opposition of the CPRE to surface coal mining over the past five years, and pointed out that the negative effects that coal mines cause by removing the soil from large areas are much greater than the negative effects wind energy might have on the countryside. ^[5]

Source

One Guardian reader commented about the Monbiot interview:

Let's face it- the CPRE are there to protect the few who enjoy the country life. Not the countryside itself. Not the biodiversity. But the pretty 'midsomer murders'/'vicar of dibley' version of rolling peaceful England and the privileged few who are allowed to enjoy it.

Source

So -- non-inclusive, upper-class, anti-technology, against new alternative energy, and OK with open pit coal mining. Good to know who Ken Avidor supports!

* * *

Ken Avidor and friends enjoy the English countryside:

"Polish PRT?"

Ken Avidor (@Daily Kos)
PRTJJ coverage

gPRT

Dump Mark Olson Blog - Now Bogus on Two Continents®, II

What the Minnesota anti-PRT propagandist is blaming on PRT today:

Daventry's PRT Promoters Want to Pave a Public Swimming Pool for a Parking Lot

Daventry Today:

THERE will be no replacement outdoor pool, no refund to the townspeople who paid for it, and the former site is likely to be built on...
. . .
In the past DDC has said it planned to expand the existing Chaucer Way car park over the old Outdoor Pool site to create an additional 240 spaces as a temporary measure while other car parks in the town are redeveloped.

In the longer term DDC’s own masterplan for the town’s growth indicates the outdoor pool land would be used for retail units, associated parking, and part of the marina project.

... but ... but ... I thought the podcars that the DDC proposed last year were supposed to make cars and parking lots obsolete?

. . .

Yet another example of the Personal Rapid Transit public relations gimmick used to mask the true intentions of people who want to privatize, build on and pave over everything.[*]

Source

Man! Is there no aspect of community affairs in central England that PRT does not touch?

The pool:

He wants you to assume the PRTistas are taking away the town's only swimming pool -- except that Daventry has what sounds like a very nice pool at the ‘leisure centre,’ as they call them, in the center of town. It sounds like the Pool Association loves the outdoor pool too, and wants it replaced. That would be fine. Whether it happens is a local political matter.

The parking:

Did anyone claim podcars will "make cars and parking lots obsolete" in Daventry? Them's some fancy words to be putting in people's mouths. In fact, the very article he links states:

It is hoped the scheme will ease congestion and save parking spaces with the town’s population set to increases [sic] to 40,000 by 2021. Source

Nothing about eliminating cars or the need for parking. Labridor doesn't even read the material he uses to substantiate his allegations.

A new challenge for Humidor: explain the various publicly subsidized, public-private, and fully privatized redevelopment projects in the vicinities of light rail stations -- encouraged for the purpose of achieving necessary density, but also resulting in gentrification and displacement of original residents and businesses.

---

* i.e., he's saying it's a conspiracy. Because if PRT has a secret agenda, the anti-PRT propagandist gets to define it however he wants.



gPRT
Gonna greenwash that Ken Avidor right out of my hair

Case Closed, or: I win the chess match

The Propagandist smears two liberal politicians

This is good! It's from the Seattle P-I Local Transit Forum. Long, but it's so worth it reading all the way to the Big Finish! (Skip to Big Finish)

Seattle PRT Proponents Excited by Daventry "PRT" Demo

#1496672

Posted by PRTskeptic at 10/10/07 7:49 p.m.
Last edited at 10/10/07 7:50 p.m.

CETA member Prof. Schneider links to a BBC demo Video:

faculty.washington.edu/jbs/itrans/whatsnew.htm

The Seattle PRT forum is excited about Daventry too:

groups.yahoo.com/group/seattleprt/message/2033

But, not the ordinary folks in Daventry:

dumpmarkolson.blogspot.com/2007/10/letters-to-editor-about-personal-rapid.html

...and the mayor of Daventry quit:

www.northamptonchron.co.uk/news/Mayor-quits-in-dispute-over.3252012.jp
=============
#1496845

Posted by PRTskeptic at 10/11/07 6:10 a.m. in reply to: #1496672

The Guardian goes Gadgetbahn:

"The Morgantown Personal Rapid Transit project is completed in West Virginia, connecting the city's five university campuses. Purists argue that it is light rail, not PRT"

www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2007/oct/11/guardianweeklytechnologysection.news1

Seattle's David Gow (Mr Grant) is upset:

innovative-transit.blogspot.com/2007/10/hello-minnesota-6th-congressional.html

...and in Daventry:

"Be positive about Pods":

www.daventrytoday.co.uk/sectionhome.aspx?sectionID=9073
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#1496874

Posted by PRTskeptic at 10/11/07 8:44 a.m. in reply to: #1496845

www.daventrytoday.co.uk/news/Get-off-our-backs-and.3365283.jp

'Get off our backs and give us a chance'

By Alice Dyer

DAVENTRY Town Council has hit back at claims it is 'dysfunctional'.
The comments were made in last week’s Daventry Express by Chris Millar, leader of Daventry District Council, following the shock resignation of town mayor Alan Gauton.

He also said there must be something ‘rotten at the core’ of the body, and called for council members to stop squabbling and start serving the public.

Lynne Taylor, town council leader said Cllr’s Millar’s comments were ‘totally unfounded’ and ‘inappropriate’

“To seek to denigrate a public authority and its members without any direct knowledge of the manner in which it conducts its business is improper,” she said.

Mr Gauton quit his role as mayor and chairman of the council because he was unhappy with how the authority was being run.

His departure followed a string of councillors and staff members quitting the authority.

Cllr Taylor admitted the town council had suffered problems recently, but added Daventry was being served by a ‘dynamic’ mix of people dedicated to serving the public.

“So Daventry District Council get off our backs. Give us a chance to show what we can do for the people of Daventry,” she said.

The town council, which currently has five empty seats, was set up four years ago to look after services like hanging baskets, Christmas lights, the war memorial and allotments. It receives more than £300,000 a year of taxpayers’ money.

....how much of that money was spent hosting the PRT pod people?
=============
#1496881

Posted by PRTskeptic at 10/11/07 9:14 a.m. in reply to: #1496874

www.daventrytoday.co.uk/news/Decay-of-forgotten-estate.3366026.jp

Decay of 'forgotten' estate

By Alice Dyer

WHILE the rest of the town seems to be heading for prosperity, residents living on a Daventry estate feel they have been forgotten.

As Daventry District Council continues to reveal ambitious plans for the future, including state-of-the-art transport systems, new homes, shops and 21st century facilities, residents say The Grange has been left to fall apart.

Ann Smith, chairman of the Grange Residents’ Association, said: “The estates have been left to go into disrepair. Some parts of The Grange look like a slum.

“The council wants the people of Daventry to be proud of the town they live in, but how can they when it’s like this? It’s like a dumping area now and it’s a mess.”

The Daventry Express visited the estate this week with Mrs Smith and Daventry district councillor Colin Poole to see the worst affected areas.

The whole estate is showing signs of serious neglect with broken paving slabs, vast amounts of weeds, broken benches, damage to the children’s play area, inadequate lighting, bushes growing over walkways and litter.

Walls have been smashed, tiles are falling off walkways and garage doors are hanging off. There is graffiti, boarded up windows and doors, broken fences and glass and children’s toys, furniture and other household items which have been dumped in the street.

Mrs Smith said: “I’m angry – we should not have to live in this squalor.
=============
#1500204

Posted by Mr_Grant at 10/15/07 11:26 a.m. in reply to: #1496881

Why don't you quote the rest of the "Mrs Smith" article, instead of cherrypicking?

"I've lived on The Grange for 30 years and at one time I was so proud to have a house here, but over the past 10 to 15 years, I've watched it go down hill.["]

10 to 15 years! PRT planning in Daventry is 2-3 years old at most. You can't blame PRT for inattentive local government. Read more
=============
#1500354

Posted by PRTskeptic at 10/15/07 3:16 p.m. in reply to: #1500204

Here's some more letters from Daventry...

Pod scheme is up in the air

It will be interesting to see how close the test track along Eastern Way for the proposed new transport system comes to reality.

A brief investigation will show that from a safety standpoint any new PRT system will have to be completely separate from existing pedestrian and vehicle routes.

The potential supplier's own web site states that where the track passes over roads there has to be 5.7 metres of headroom and for pedestrian transit 2.5 metres of headroom.

They also estimate that in an urban environment, such as Daventry, over 90 per cent of the system will have to be elevated. So if the system gets approval, much of it including the stations, will be almost 20 feet up in the air!

How much of the test track will be at this level?

Allan Simmonds
Drayton

Living in Disneyland?

I wonder if the people of Daventry share the enthusiasm of the council for the proposed PRT system reported last week.
At an estimated cost of £80 million, which will be inevitably optimistic, the comment "the officers in Daventry have the will and motivation to try something that has never been tried before" raises questions about the council's expertise and judgement.

Coming on top of the proposed marina and canal link, would we be wrong in asking whether the councillors are spending too much time on 'Disneyland' dreams instead of concentrating on the town and county management?

It would also be interesting to hear from them where the funds are coming from for the project; the recent conference and the consultancy firm instructed. Personally, I have considerable doubts about the practicalities of the scheme anyway.

G. Pearse
Highlands Drive,
Daventry

Town is world leader already

Daventry needn't worry about this new pod travel system – as it is already a leader! Leader of the highest petrol prices that is!
For the last four or five months the petrol prices at all garages in Daventry have stayed the same – they do not compete.

The petrol price has gone down everywhere else but Daventry! In the last month I have found petrol in Devon, Somerset, Essex and central London considerably cheaper (up to 5p a litre less) – surprising as the latter two are supposed to be more expensive to live in! Even petrol on the motorway services is the same as Daventry's or cheaper.

Why are we allowing ourselves to be ripped off?
Lets see some competition between the local garages!
G Bottomley
Elder Drive
Daventry

Tackle the real issues

Well done Daventry District Council, yet another brilliant idea...not!
Pods – well at least the kids will have something to do surfing, shooting, burning and wrecking the pods as they go round.

If there's £80 million on offer why not develop something for them to do, bin these crazy ideas and stop this town going completely down the toilet.

There is too much housing, too many people and so very little to do. I've lived in this town for 39 years and watched it slowly be destroyed by the local council who don't have the town's real population at heart. No police, broken roads, run-down estates, feral kids – these are the issues that need addressing not some hare-brained scheme like pods.
Wake up and smell the coffee DDC.

Name and address
supplied

Nice idea but wrong scheme

I have no wish to run down everything Daventry District Council comes up with and indeed it should be applauded for its forward thinking because, like it or not, oil will run out eventually and we must look for alternative soloutions to the car as we know it.
But I have to say I can not really see the pod as a realistic answer because if you think about it a horse and cart, although a lot slower, would be a better form of transport taking you closer to your home and using or causing very little carbon emission.

The pod system is bound to fail while there are still cars giving the public door-to-door conection and if you try to stop the entrance of cars to our shopping centre, people will simply go else where thus killing the town centre.

Leslie Weatherley
Via email
=============
#1500482

Posted by Mr_Grant at 10/15/07 4:49 p.m. in reply to: #1500354

Of course there are skeptical letterwriters. It's a British national pastime.

I think you forgot this story though: "Pods prove a huge hit"

Oh wait, you didn't forget -- you ignored it, you naughty cherrypicker you.
=============
#1500653

Posted by PRTskeptic at 10/15/07 8:25 p.m. in reply to: #1500482

Cherrypicking?

That's what PRT guru J. Edward Anderson said would be the SOP for getting passengers off disabled PRT pods:

Mr. Springer: Is there an evacuation plan

Mr. Ed Anderson: Yes. With cherrypickers, ropes, etc.

www.midtowngreenway.org/programs/transit/Streetcar_cmte_minutes_March_8_2004.htm

BTW... Does anyone know if David Gow is paid to promote PRT?
=============
#1500669

Posted by Mr_Grant at 10/15/07 8:54 p.m. in reply to: #1500653

So? That kind of cherrypicker is a very safe basket on an arm mounted to a big truck. People use them every day. There are also scissors lifts you can put on trucks too.

But everyone who knows PRT (and isn't a PRTphobe) knows Anderson's preferred evacuation plan is for another vehicle to push the breakdown to the next station.

Why so concerned about my compensation, [K#n]? Just puttin' out a general call for snitches now, eh? Would it help if I bought a copy of your book?
=============
#1500688

Posted by PRTskeptic at 10/15/07 9:20 p.m. in reply to: #1500669

Another great answer from J. Edward Anderson:

Question: How do we deal with squirrels, birds, raccoons, etc.?

Answer: Small creatures could nest in the bottom corners of my covered guideway without bothering anything. But, the plan is to build a maintenance vehicle equipped with a light, a television camera, and a high-pressure hose. It will be operated from time to time late at night to inspect the guideway interior to remove debris.

Right, lots of cities are going to want a transportation system that rains soggy critters etc. on pedestrians, buildings and vehicles.
=============
#1500696

Posted by Mr_Grant at 10/15/07 9:35 p.m. in reply to: #1500688

[K#n], you've just given an argument that can also be used to argue that (in your language) "Telephone Poles Are a Joke" and "Power Lines Are a Joke." No one's going to want electricity infrastructure that birds can sit on and poop on your head, or that rain can drip off of!

In fact, why don't you go all the way and call your new blog "Any Tall Thing, That Something Can Fall From Onto Another Thing, is a Joke"?

Prediction: your next talking point in this thread will be PRT can't run in the snow.
=============
#1500852

Posted by PRTskeptic at 10/16/07 6:19 a.m. in reply to: #1500696

Not my "talking point". I read about it it from the Taxi 2000 Corporation prospectus (Risk Factors):

"This technology [Ultra] is different in many respects from the Taxi 2000 technology and has some distinct disadvantages. It uses a larger and heavier guideway that we believe will be more obtrusive and more expensive. It uses larger cars that we believe will be more expensive. Because it uses rotary propulsion and braking, it cannot operate in ice and snow conditions and cannot run at the close headways planned for the Taxi 2000 system. Because it uses battery power, it is speed limited. At this point it lacks a complete control system, as well as other vital features of a commercial product."

BTW... is Morrie Anderson still CEO of Taxi 2000?
=============
#1500877

Posted by PRTskeptic at 10/16/07 6:58 a.m. in reply to: #1500696
Last edited at 10/16/07 7:00 a.m.

... of course, the Taxi 2000 vehicle is unsuited for snow too. The way the sloping roof opens with the door would dump snow (and water if raining) onto the passengers... see photo:

i24.tinypic.com/20zz88g.jpg

Clearly, the Taxi 2000 pod was designed more to look "futuristic" than practical. Knowing that, the question is why are PRT promoters working so hard to promote it and who is paying them and why?
=============
#1500913

Posted by Mr_Grant at 10/16/07 9:23 a.m. in reply to: #1500852

You mean the Risk Factors document you claimed revealed safety concerns that make PRT unworkable? And then had to backpedal when it turned out to be a standard investor safe harbor statement? Two years ago? Ahhahahahaha!
=============
#1500921

Posted by Mr_Grant at 10/16/07 9:36 a.m. in reply to: #1500877

the Taxi 2000 vehicle is unsuited for snow too. The way the sloping roof opens with the door would dump snow (and water if raining) onto the passengers

Do you know the difference between a prototype and a production model? How WOULD one deal with such a problem? Hmmm... I don't know... how about a gutter, like on the edge of a car roof?

Prediction: your next Talking Point will be PRT doesn't have air conditioning. Instead, why not surf over to Vectus.se, where the new video includes a nice shot of the cabin's HVAC panel.

I must say, [K#n], you are up to your usual quality standards. Recently I corresponded with someone who wrote that he did not respond to your disinformation 2 years ago, because he thought it would help you sharpen your arguments. He is so pleased to have been proven wrong.
=============
#1500970

Posted by PRTskeptic at 10/16/07 11:01 a.m. in reply to: #1500921
Last edited at 10/16/07 11:04 a.m.

That Vectus "HVAC panel" is in a dangerous position for heating a small pod. The lack of headroom means somebody could get a nasty burn on their head if they bumped into it or comes close to it... which is exactly what happens in this video:

prt.blip.tv/

The HVAC on the top also means cold feet... maybe not a problem in Seattle, but it would be in Minnesota where it can get pretty darn cold.

Also, it seems PRT is losing support even among the far right-wing of the MN Republican Party:

anti-strib.blogspot.com/2007/10/prt-can-it-be-real-progressive-solution.html

DFL candidate Elwyn Tinklenberg's campaign told me they will challenge Congresswoman Michele Bachmann on her support for PRT.

So, who are the public officials in Minnesota who support PRT these days, Mr. Gow?
=============
#1500984

Posted by Mr_Grant at 10/16/07 11:17 a.m. in reply to: #1500970

[K#n], you are really making it up now! The HVAC panel will put out enough heat for the small space -- they won't be using it to make stir-fry.

What's more, Vectus is being designed to satisfy SWEDISH weather conditions.

As for Tinklenberg, I wish him luck.
=============
#1501105

Posted by PRTskeptic at 10/16/07 1:39 p.m. in reply to: #1500984

I'm sure you do...

Elwyn Tinklenberg was Transportation Commissioner under Jesse Ventura. Tinklenberg had to put up with anti-LRT, pro-PRT arguments from PRTpromoters like David Morris:

www.ilsr.org/columns/1999/111499.html

Is David Morris still a supporter of PRT now that LRT is a huge success in Minnesota?
=============
#1501119

Posted by Mr_Grant at 10/16/07 2:01 p.m. in reply to: #1501105
Last edited at 10/16/07 2:03 p.m.

Morris? Why don't call him up and ask him? Or have you given him the Larry Fabian treatment?

Are we really going to keep doing this thing we do? You resurrect some old talking point, I knock it down again, you drop it and raise another one, I debunk that one too? I have nothing but time.

But if it would be more convenient, I have an offer for you. I could design for you a web page that lists all your propaganda in numerical order. Then when you want to troll at, for example, Daily Kos, you can just type "Number 4!" and link to it. Or when you want to ask how I make a living, "Does anyone know if David Gow is Number 17?"

Anyway, it's just an idea. Let me know.
=============
#1501131

Posted by PRTskeptic at 10/16/07 2:16 p.m. in reply to: #1501119

Why can't you view the Daily Kos story on Podcars anymore?

Was the guy who posted that Daily Kos Podcar story the Mayor of Fountain Valley, CA?

Y'know... this guy?:

www.cyburbia.org/forums/showthread.php?t=31655
=============
#1501137

Posted by Mr_Grant at 10/16/07 2:26 p.m. in reply to: #1500970
Last edited at 10/16/07 2:31 p.m.

[K#n], I knew you'd want to have this information about your "no headroom" talking point (prt.blip.tv) ASAP.

Why should this reporter have trouble when others didn't?

Putting on my old TV Production hat, it is obvious what happened. The cameraman was standing outside and had her framed too high. Being a good TV reporter, she did her best to stay in frame and stood upright too soon.

Should you be able to stand up straight inside? Why? All rides on PRT are intended to be seated.

This was my official debunking of the "no headroom" Talking Point; please make a note of it.
=============
#1501138

Posted by Mr_Grant at 10/16/07 2:29 p.m. in reply to: #1501131
Last edited at 10/16/07 2:33 p.m.

Why can't you view the Daily Kos story on Podcars anymore?

The post-conference article has been reposted on Google Groups in Transport-Innovators, and in SeattlePRT on Yahoo Groups. Sorry, your trolling seems to have been omitted.

But, I saved a copy of the whole page; I can send it to you if you want.

Hope this helps!
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#1501449

Posted by PRTskeptic at 10/17/07 4:53 a.m. in reply to: #1501138

Interesting:

en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ossified&curid=12934900&diff=165091706&oldid=165084034

Why is he so upset?
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#1501514

Posted by Mr_Grant at 10/17/07 9:18 a.m. in reply to: #1501449
Last edited at 10/17/07 9:22 a.m.

Not "upset"; try "outraged." He explains why right there in the Wiki Diff.

Sorry, but what does this have to do with any of the things you have brought up in this thread? Try picking one, and stick to discussing it with others until you understand what you've gotten wrong.

Unless your purpose is not to discuss or understand, but rather just to simply regurgitate Talking Points?
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#1501536

Posted by PRTskeptic at 10/17/07 10:00 a.m. in reply to: #1501514

You agree then with this blogger?:

www.shotinthedark.info/wp/?p=1454#comment-17778
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#1501558

Posted by Mr_Grant at 10/17/07 10:46 a.m. in reply to: #1501536

Agree with what? That you do a fair bit of wiki-editing? I wasn't aware there was any doubt about that. Need me to stipulate to that? OK; or as you would say -- "Whatever."

Again, pick a subject and stick to it. Add to that: be clear.
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#1501625

Posted by PRTskeptic at 10/17/07 12:27 p.m. in reply to: #1501558

Wasn't Cincinnati supposed to get a PRT system? What happened with that?

Oh, never mind:

news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071015/NEWS01/310150043

Cincinnati will unveil plans Tuesday on how to pay for a four-mile, $100 million downtown streetcar line that advocates believe will contribute $2 billion to the city’s economy and transform Over-the-Rhine.

The plan’s cheerleaders include politicians, transit activists and urban developers.

Guess all that "debunking" didn't convince anyone.
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#1501727

Posted by Mr_Grant at 10/17/07 2:53 p.m. in reply to: #1501625

Kenwood, stop pretending you don't know what happened with Cincinnati.

Coy is not clever.
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#1501851

Posted by PRTskeptic at 10/17/07 6:31 p.m. in reply to: #1501727

I thought you would know. The Skyloop website is still up, but it hasn't been updated for a while:

www.skyloop.org/news.htm

Is Forward Quest going to try to bring up PRT again?
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#1501875

Posted by Mr_Grant at 10/17/07 7:39 p.m. in reply to: #1501851

Stop pretending you haven't known the answer to that question since on or before Sept. 26, 2006.

That's two Skyloop questions in a row though. Way to stay focused.
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#1501908

Posted by PRTskeptic at 10/17/07 8:32 p.m. in reply to: #1501875

Thank you for reminding me to stay on topic... back to PRT in Daventry:

www.daventrytoday.co.uk/letters/Straight-out-of-Springfield.3387864.jp

Straight out of Springfield

This whole 'pod' scheme rings a bell to me. I think DDC has been watching too many episodes of the Simpsons. Episode 71 to be exact, entitled 'Marge Vs. the Monorail'.

The plot focuses around the town of Springfield buying a monorail from a conman, which ends in disaster! By the looks of the size of these pods, you won't fit in them with any shopping and if you have a buggy you can forget it! Does this also mean that the Daventry Dart drivers will be out of a job?

I agree with the recent letters in the Gusher – the pods will just get wrecked by the rogue kids of Daventry.

It's about time they stopped skipping with the pixies and thought about a bowling complex, cinema or something similar for families and teenagers alike to do in their spare time. Let's face it, there's nothing else to do in this town!

The pods are just another thing to add onto the 'list of stupidity' by the council alongside a marina with no canal. If it has the money for the pods why doesn't it have the money to build the canal? It's about time it started asking the residents what they would like, instead of trying to get on the 'global map'. We may be on the map as Cllr Millar states, but it will be as a laughing stock, not for anything great.

T Nairn
Braunston Road
Daventry
Last Updated: 17 October 2007 3:55 PM
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#1501921

Posted by Mr_Grant at 10/17/07 8:46 p.m. in reply to: #1501908

Ohhhh! 'PRT is like the Simpsons monorail episode' -- how original!

Your point is that this is the level of debate that should decide public policy questions? I shall make a note of it.
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#1502066

Posted by PRTskeptic at 10/18/07 9:03 a.m. in reply to: #1501921

Please do... and please also make a note of this item from today's SC Times:

www.sctimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071018/NEWS01/110180029/1009

"Severson and Rep. Mark Olson, R-Big Lake, called for new approaches to funding and for studying transportation alternatives, such as a system of elevated rails on which small pods travel a fixed route, known as Personal Rapid Transit.

Is Rep. Dan Severson, R-Sauk Rapids a liberal, Mr. Gow?
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#1502085

Posted by Mr_Grant at 10/18/07 9:50 a.m. in reply to: #1502066
Last edited at 10/18/07 9:52 a.m.

Hmmm, that rings a bell; why does this sound so familiar -- oh yeah, more Talking Points.

Your conspiracy theory doesn't work -- PRT-endorser EU is not right-wing. [PRT]-developing Sweden is not right-wing. Peter Calthorpe of the Congress for New Urbanism is not right-wing. The Short Elliott firm you hate so much gives more to Democrats. PRT has appeared in a state Democratic platform, but no state GOP platforms that I can find. Where was the federal PRT legislation during the 13 years the Resmuglicans controlled Congress?

Want to dump Smoochy Bachmann and Slappy Olson? I hope you do. But PRT is still just a technology. And you are, like today's weather, all wet.
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#1502186

Posted by Mr_Grant at 10/18/07 1:58 p.m. in reply to: #1502066
Last edited at 10/18/07 2:00 p.m.

Hey Nedken,

I knows you loves your Flash videos, so you and your fan club should watch this one of Gus Ayer (you know, the guy you spammed at Daily Kos) at the Uppsala conference. He talks about using PRT to do sustainable smart development and reduce automobile use. In the Q&A he also decries the right-wing news media.

Then watch this video of the other politician who spoke in favor of PRT -- an Uppsala official from the Social Democrats. That's the democratic socialists, Kenworth.

Are THEY liberals, Mr. [Av!d@r]?

Lots of other videos from the conference too.
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#1502204

Posted by PRTskeptic at 10/18/07 3:01 p.m. in reply to: #1502186

There will always be a few left-wingers like Zimmermann... but I think we all know what motivated him now.

PRT has no support among the DFL leadership in the MN Legislature.

Thanks for that Podcar page, Mr. Gow. I especially liked the presentation by Chris Perkins of Unimodal/Skytran... funny when his computer crashed.

He mentioned grants from the USDOT and NASA for Unimodal... is that true? I can't find anything about it on the web.

Thanks again.
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#1502215

Posted by Mr_Grant at 10/18/07 3:27 p.m. in reply to: #1502204
Last edited at 10/18/07 3:36 p.m.

"left-wingers like Zimmermann"

So liberals who support PRT, from anywhere in the world, are corrupt?

That is a smear of breathtaking proportions, and a conspiracy of impossible complexity.

My post specifically asked you about Ayer, and Pelling of Uppsala. Do you have any proof they are corrupt?
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#1502353

Posted by PRTskeptic at 10/18/07 9:08 p.m. in reply to: #1502215

I was only talking about Zimmermann.

www.careerbuilder.com/monk-e-mail/?mid=23887027
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#1502405

Posted by Mr_Grant at 10/18/07 10:41 p.m. in reply to: #1502353
Last edited at 10/18/07 10:44 p.m.

No, I'm afraid you can't get out of it that easily. Rewind:

1. You wrote @1502066 "Is Rep. Dan Severson, R-Sauk Rapids a liberal, Mr. Gow?" Which is part of your Talking Point that only right-wingers support PRT.

2. @1502186 I wrote about Gus Ayer and the "Uppsala official" Pelling, and asked you "Are THEY liberals, Mr. [Labridor]?"

3. Your answer immediately following @1502204: "There will always be a few left-wingers like Zimmermann... but I think we all know what motivated him now." Anyone who knows your 'work' knows this means Zimmermann was convicted for taking bribes.

Your meaning clearly was Ayer and Pelling are like Zimmermann, corrupt.

4. After I called you on this smear, your excuse @1502353: "I was only talking about Zimmermann." REALLY? You were answering a question about Ayer and Pelling! Why then bring up the corrupt Zimmermann at all?

The fact, Kenthorpe, is that you have no evidence that PRT is a right wing anti-transit conspiracy, you never have, and you never will. When shown liberals who support PRT you smear them. Your 'strategy' is nothing more than smearing any PRT supporter and adding them to your list of conspirators.

You are just like the right wingers you claim to oppose: when challenged with truth and facts you attack the messenger.

Ladies and gentlemen, I rest my case.

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Hope you enjoyed it!

The thread in the P-I Forum (while it lasts, they clear old threads)

Oct. 19 -- The last entry has been deleted! Who ran crying to mommy this time??? (I have reposted an edited version, we'll see what happens)

Here is the repost:

#1502634

No, I'm afraid you can't get out of it that easily. Rewind:

1. You wrote @1502066 "Is Rep. Dan Severson, R-Sauk Rapids a liberal, Mr. Gow?" Which is part of your Talking Point that only right-wingers support PRT.

2. @1502186 I wrote about Gus Ayer and the "Uppsala official" Pelling, and asked you "Are THEY liberals, Mr. [MN anti-PRT propagandist]?"

3. Your answer immediately following @1502204: "There will always be a few left-wingers like Zimmermann... but I think we all know what motivated him now." Anyone who knows your 'work' knows this means Zimmermann was convicted for taking bribes.

4. After I called you on this, your excuse @1502353: "I was only talking about Zimmermann." REALLY? You were answering a question about Ayer and Pelling! Why then bring up the corrupt Zimmermann at all?

The fact is that you have no evidence that PRT is a right wing anti-transit conspiracy, do you?

It doesn't exist, even though you've had this and other opportunities to present it.

Ladies and gentlemen, I rest my case.

Oct. 21-- He can't wait to tar Ithaca liberal with the Zimmermann brush; maybe it's artistic envy?

gPRT
Ken Avidor keeps his face in a jar by the door

Dump Mark Olson Blog - Now Bogus on Two Continents®

Heya PRTistas, here's what's in the non-news today: the Minnesota anti-PRT propagandist is now trying to blame neighborhood problems in central England on PRT! He quotes the Daventry Express:

Daventry District Council Promoted PRT While Neglecting Neighborhoods

WHILE the rest of the town seems to be heading for prosperity, residents living on a Daventry estate feel they have been forgotten.

As Daventry District Council continues to reveal ambitious plans for the future, including state-of-the-art transport systems, new homes, shops and 21st century facilities, residents say The Grange has been left to fall apart.
...Mrs Smith said: "I’m angry – we should not have to live in this squalor.["]

Don't worry, Mrs. Smith you're going to have your pod in the sky by and by.

Source

Unless Mark "Slappy" Olson is planning to run for Mayor of Daventry, this is just another irrelevant front in Ken Avidor's propaganda war against a technology.

Kenny-Boy's linkage -- PRT is planned, therefore neighborhood policy is impacted -- shows a willful, pretend-ignorance of the complexities of community affairs.

As you probably already expect, PRT has zero to do with the issue. First:

Daventry's PRT planning is not stand-alone, but rather only one part in an overall growth-planning process. Daventry is anticipating an influx of 40,000 new residents by the year 2021. This requires plans for jobs, services and utilities, housing, transportation, etc. In other words, Daventry would be doing this planning whether PRT is on the table or not.

Second: Daventry is working under sustainability mandates for development, and needs to meet emissions goals. Transport and reducing aggregate emissions -- including car exhaust -- is part of that. In other words, Daventry would be planning some kind of new transit system whether PRT is on the table or not. 
Finally, let's return to the Mrs. Smith interviewed in the Express story:

"I've lived on The Grange for 30 years and at one time I was so proud to have a house here, but over the past 10 to 15 years, I've watched it go down hill.["]

Huh. "10 to 15 years." PRT planning in Daventry is 2-3 years old at most. 
If there has been a failure in policy regarding The Grange in Daventry, it has been a long time coming and, like in any town, will be addressed as part of a local process. In fact, it appears as though the town has taken some steps toward improving the district (1, 2). Whether it is sufficient, whether it's happening fast enough, what other steps can be taken, and its ranking among all issues are, again, a local political matter.

And irrelevant to the development of Personal Rapid Transit. Avidor could have just as easily blamed The Grange's 'neglect' on the new homes and shops also being planned!

Mr. Avidor of Minneapolis needs to spend less time worrying about planning in England, and more time trying to Dump Mark Olson (please!).

Read Part II

Also Oct. 11 -- Same paper, same reporter: Pods Prove a Huge Hit.
Oct. 12 -- Daventry Express isn't with him, so he's against them

Oct. 13 -- I make Nixidor's Enemies List

gPRT
Ken Avidor is bogus - dump Roadkill Bill